The side of Socialized Medicine you weren't supposed to see

Interestingly enough my brother-in-law has a sister who is a nurse in Canada. During a debate we had, she told me that no one was turned away for treatment in Canada. Notwithstanding many documented statements to the contrary wherein people had to come to the US to pay out of pocket for effective, exceptable medical treatment, she maintains a position that there are no death panels and no one makes the decision but the patient, their relatives, and the attending physicians as to whether or not a patient receives treatment. WELL...that apparently isn't true at all. Below is an article that shows what happens in real life situations with socialized medicine in places like Canada.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/culture/family/6685-baby-joseph-transferred-to-us-hospital

56 comments:

Anonymous said...

Isn't this two separate things? The parents want him to die at home, the hospital wanted him to die there. It seems to me that the only issue is where he dies.

Or did I miss something?

Anonymous said...

"The family had been asking that Joseph instead receive a tracheotomy, believing he’d then be able to breathe on his own so he could be brought to Windsor to die at home. But facing a 10 a.m. Monday date to remove the breathing tube, they’ve asked that he be transferred to Children’s Hospital of Michigan."

So WE are going to foot THIER bill so he can be flown back to DIE at HOME? OP lied about the content of his article.

RightCoast said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
RightCoast said...

Who is "WE" 12:54? Read the article, it says; "The transfer and treatment of the baby is in fact being paid for by Priests for Life." See what charity does in leui of government handouts? It's a beautiful thing.

Sorry about my previous posting that I removed. I made a mistake.

Liberal Elite said...

"medical testimony that the child is in a permanent vegetative state"

And you want Canada to spend $$$ on an already dead baby? That's nuts. Just pull the plug, have the funeral, and move on.

RightCoast said...

See LE? That's what happens when the government decides and not the family. The family decided to take action in their own hands and with the help of charity they can decide how to go forward with their child, who is still alive....as it should be.

Liberal Elite said...

??? OK Fine, Turn the kid into another Schiavo. or take him to the taxidermist... whatever..

But why is this a criticism of socialized medicine? Why are taxpayers expected to pay the medical bills of nutcases?

I thought your right wing folks were all about not wasting tax money for other people's wants?

Two Sentz said...

I thought that was exactly what she was getting at.

Anonymous said...

Life is never a waste...
Rec1

Liberal Elite said...

"I thought that was exactly what she was getting at."

And I thought the theme of this thread was: "Look! Death panels. Socialized medicine is no good."

..and why is it no good? Because it refuses to waste money.

Liberal Elite said...

@R1 "Life is never a waste..."

What does that mean???

Look. We could give this kid an immortal life. We could take his stem cells and grow them for as long as we want. We are already doing that for some other people. Have you read about the immortal life of Henrietta Lacks?

What's your goal here? To keep his cells alive? His brain is already gone. His soul has already been claimed.

Hypocrisy said...

10:23. Do you lose that BS sarcasm if the cord you pull is from one of your own, or do you keep that answer and remain a heartless ass??

Liberal Elite said...

@10:59 "Do you lose that BS sarcasm.."

Sarcasm?

No. I have a living will, and if I became terminally ill, I'd have a DNR in place (as do some of my relatives).

If it was one of my kids, or wife.... Yea. Pull the plug as soon as the brain is gone. There's nothing worth keeping after that.

Anonymous said...

LE: "His soul has already been claimed."
I didn't think you believed in eternal immortality?
"and why is it no good? Because it refuses to waste money."-How much is a life worth?
Rec1

Liberal Elite said...

@R1 "I didn't think you believed in eternal immortality?"

I don't. I was speaking of the Christian view in a general sense. The bible says to be abscent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

@R1 "How much is a life worth? "

That question only applies to the living.

Reconciled1 said...

Just so you know where my point of view is coming from as well.. I too have a living will and I am an organ donor..but that is my choice..
The way I'm reading this is that the doctors were refusing the parents wishes.. thus a patient's right to choose since he is minor? Which would seem to point to a "death panel"
I agree with "The bible says to be abscent from the body is to be present with the Lord."
My point is who makes that choice? Who decides if a life is viable?

Anonymous said...

Some of us may argue your brain and soul is already gone. And the world could use saving a little power if you want us to unplug you.

RightCoast said...

Regardless of what the child's medical state is, hope for rehabilitation, or any other factor, in a tax funded socialized medical system, the CHOICE is taken away from the family. I thought "CHOICE" was the biggest compelling argument when it came to life issues. Again, this particular family's only choice was to follow the governments ruling for the sake of expedience and helplessly let their baby die or come to the United States with the help of the kindness and generosity of charity for medical care.

hungry hungy hypocritomus said...

the other guy wants you to have a choice to but he wants you to follow only HIS choice.

Liberal Elite said...

@RC "...the CHOICE is taken away from the family."

The family asked for something unreasonable. It is reasonable to have a policy that socialized medicine will not pay for unlimited care for a brain dead patient. That you think it is not is what is strange.

I don't have any real problem with what the parents did. I just don't see why anyone else is expected to pay for their folly.

Anonymous said...

who says YOU determine what unreasonable is?

Anonymous said...

RightCoast said...
Regardless of what the child's medical state is, hope for rehabilitation, or any other factor, in a tax funded socialized medical system, the CHOICE is taken away from the family.

That is so NOT true! It may not be what you MEANT to say, but if a child has a chance at any kind of life (unlike this one) a "socialized medical system" will not only do what it can to sustain that life, but will offer ancillary services (such as education, rehabilitation, prostheses, etc.) to held that child get the most out of life--all in consultation with the family. WITHOUT putting the family into a financial hole, as often happens in this country!

Joe H.
Stevensville, MD

Liberal Elite said...

@R1 "My point is who makes that choice? Who decides if a life is viable?"

I lean towards science on that one. If the EEG is flat, then dead is dead.

I see the parental view as fraught with emotion and not necessarily rational.

Ghost of Stu Nahan said...

Welcome everyone to what is shaping up to be a knock-down drag out fight from what appears to be a lot of passionate people tastefully dressed in cotton Dockers and sensible Earth-toned cotton blends in order that they may come at each other like spider monkies. No cover charge. Both 3 drink minimum//knock-down rules apply. Ding-Ding!!

Reconciled1 said...

LE:
I see where you're coming from...
Coming from a Christian point of view, I must say that I'm torn on this.. I feel and believe that God has final say and if there is a chance of life, no matter how small, viable or "productable"it seems, it should be protected.. on the other hand, I feel that science can and has pushed that to the point of only "living" on a machine to breathe thus not really living at all.. that's why I have a living will thus making the choice.. the part I am firm on is that the state or government should not make that choice for the patient.. I also believe that if the parents want to make that choice and socialized medicine wants to pull the plug, the parents have the right to do what they did, find other means to pay for it..

Anonymous said...

LE: I too have an advance directive but in doing so, I have chosen someone who has the same mind as me. Chosen being the operative word.
These parents are trying to exercise their right to choose.

I''m with R1 on this issue.

LE: I wonder if you will change your mind as your time gets closer ??

Reconciled1 said...

Ghost: not at all.. I actually enjoy the fact that even though LE and possibly others and I don't agree with each other, we are able to discuss in a civilized manner.. that can be done when you're not trying to change someones mind but rather discuss why you believe the things you do.. I believe I may even learn something when I enter a discussion with an open mind..

one may speak of him as 'the wind' said...

if one support Row vesus Wayde established invader law and woman choice respected and many of us elders also do-when we start to slant the meaning of choice down other slippery slopes to fit inderviduals warrior agenda rather than tribe as whole. many of my people who smart enough to see Roe v. Wade as something other than two possible ways to cross village river just want people to look at issue fairly as if they had elderly or younglings relatives going to afterworld and make educated choice not influenced by what my people call Buffalo-sh*t.

Sometimes wise man best not argue facts with other bitter viewpoint as other person hopeless just say cold blooded viewpoint is turn off that makes one want to smash chair.

Liberal Elite said...

@12:20 "LE: I wonder if you will change your mind as your time gets closer ??"

Unlikely. In fact, when the time comes, I see my most likely death as self assisted. I don't have any religious baggage on that issue. I know how to do it cleanly, swiftly, and painlessly.

My 91 year old Aunt killed herself last year. I thought she left too early, but she had her reasons. She chose not to play the final scene. It's an exit with integrity intact.

Liberal Elite said...

@R1 "...if there is a chance of life, no matter how small, viable or "productable"it seems, it should be protected.. on the other hand, I feel that science can and has pushed that to the point of only "living" on a machine to breathe thus not really living at all.. that's why I have a living will thus making the choice.. the part I am firm on is that the state or government should not make that choice for the patient.. I also believe that if the parents want to make that choice and socialized medicine wants to pull the plug, the parents have the right to do what they did, find other means to pay for it.."

There's nothing here I disagree with.

My main point of contention was that socialized medicine was portrayed as somehow evil or negligent in making what, to me, seemed a very reasonable choice.

Reconciled1 said...

LE: Wow.....just wow.
I personally would feel hopeless to have that point of view.
My grandfather is 91 and even though he is nearly blind, deaf and doesn't get out much ( which some may view as not having a productive life)he has so much wisdom to offer through his life experiences..

Anonymous said...

you have certainly made your experience painful for the rest of us. Thanxs for that. For an anonymous crazy dude who slathers daily bullshit you seem to only value yourself. maybe you are one of those guys that should actually look into the mirror. You appear to be a dreadful, lost soul.

Reconciled1 said...

LE 12:42: thus is the rub I guess.. "a reasonable choice" is subject to one's opinion or view of sustainable life

Reconciled1 said...

Productable??? :) Welcome to my world.. sometimes I think if I use it in a sentence, it's a word.. should have read productive

Liberal Elite said...

@R1 "he has so much wisdom to offer through his life experiences.."

I don't doubt that. But what if he said one day "I've had enough. Please help me exit."

My father's exact words were "I want to escape.", and that was two weeks before his death. I failed to help, and his last two weeks were miserable and degrading. It's my shame to bear.

Anonymous said...

few know he also is pictured in the smiffsonian as the only dokumented example of the Dikkasaurus n that aint obscene-it is jus Finnish where his waterfront lakes be.

Reconciled1 said...

@LE: But what if he said one day "I've had enough. Please help me exit."

As a Christian man who is strong in his beliefs, I don't think he ever would... he believes every day is a gift. We have had several discussions about how hard it is to grow old and struggle with just daily tasks but everyday he has hope in the fact this life is but temporary and then "his reward"

I'm sure that was a huge burden for you to bear..

Liberal Elite said...

Yea.. I treat my dogs better in this regard.

Anonymous said...

I think this is primarily a discussion of differing opinions, some of which are firmly settled in religious/faith beliefs.

Our Christian faith teaches that all life is valuable no matter how productive, vegetative, consequential, worthwhile, useful, vigorous, personally rewarding or beneficial to others.

afterthegoldrush said...

Even in the late stages of Alzheimer's disease, my mother's view on life remained the same: "It's better than the alternative".

RightCoast said...

Here's another example of death panels in socialized medicine: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1366801/Premature-Mothers-22-week-old-son-dies-arms-doctors-refuse-treat-revival-policy.html?ITO=1490

Reconciled1 said...

ATGR-
My Pop died of Alzheimers as well.. when he started to realize his memory was fading he told me " at least I get to meet new people all the time" ...
Philippians 1:21For me to live is Christ [His life in me], and to die is gain [the gain of the glory of eternity].

22If, however, it is to be life in the flesh and I am to live on here, that means fruitful service for me; so I can say nothing as to my personal preference [I cannot choose],

23But I am hard pressed between the two. My yearning desire is to depart (to be free of this world, to set forth) and be with Christ, for that is far, far better;

24But to remain in my body is more needful and essential for your sake.

afterthegoldrush said...

R1,
My mother could not remember what day of the week it was or what she had eaten for lunch, but she could remember with great detail the first date with my father in 1941 (and most other joyous past memories of her life).
What an even more hideous disease Alzheimer's would be if those conditions were reversed.
More proof to me that there is a God!

Anonymous said...

I miss Mel already.

RightCoast said...

I'm going to weigh in with a personal story. My mother was dying of cancer. she had been through 3 years of treatment and it just kept coming back. Her body was growing tumors that were blocking her stomach and impaired her ability to eat. Sure they could of denied her surgery and saved money, after all she was dying anyway, but the surgery did give her a few extra months to extend her life, allowed her to spend one last Christmas with us and made her more comfortable in her last days. I'm thankful our family had the choice in the matter to make life, what was left of it better for mom.

Anonymous said...

Mirror, Mirror...

douggly said...

I'm here.

Anonymous said...

It is very interesting to see people equate any of this the the supposed "death panels".

Although this story does not apply to the generla feeling some of the others would have happened whether or not the "socialized medicine" happened or not.

Truth is this has been happening for a long time in this country and others. Everyday all the time.

Anonymous said...

9:29 That's true to some degree but not really. You might be talking about insurance denials or abject loss of choice due to finical restraints.

cruggly said...

All of us will die, hard pill to swallow. When you young and you grounded for a week you think its forever, its not. I think if the world beats you down enough you will be waiting long before she comes callin. You could be gone tommorow, enjoy today. Thats the only real power any of us truely have. Shits real short.

doug wilkerson said...

You master that and your earth will become your heaven. You have seventy six years, ready set go...

cruggly said...

Ill do the mean persons lines. " crugg should be on medicine, people like him dont know. Give that guy some pills or maybe some syqo delic crap" (kiss my ass).

Anonymous said...

I will be playing the role of Jesus as well as Judas this evening. You all need to learn how to relax dont do it, let your body get to it,RELAX.

Two Sentz said...

Indeed.

Liberal Elite said...

@9:29 "Truth is this has been happening for a long time in this country and others. Everyday all the time."

Exactly right. Here's an interesting book on the subject that was recently reviewed on NPR.

"The Hippocratic Myth:..."
http://www.amazon.com/Hippocratic-Myth-Pressure-Practice-Compromise/dp/0230603734

Exactly right...

Anonymous said...

Check your own health insurance documentation. Usually the same language about "death panels" (in theory)is in there.

It has been there for a long time. I found it in mine long before the President came into office. A lot of people didn't know that becuase who exactly wants to read that book all the way.

So this "fuss" is all about distraction. It is a bit fat political lie.